F-Zero Central Message Board
F-Zero GX (Gamecube) >> Post FZGX Times >> New Member: PDM http://fzerocentral.suddenlaunch.com/index.cgi?board=fzgxtimes&action=display&num=1061246121 New Member: PDM
Post by PDM on Aug 18th, 2003, 5:35pm
Mute City: Sonic Oval: 3Lap: 37"025 1Lap: 11"532 Speed: 2579
Comments: I used the real race speeds for the sonic oval and aero dive, instead of these 93xx speedrecords.
Re: New Member: PDM
Post by David Van Moer on Aug 18th, 2003, 5:57pm
Some dakou times in there You sure you want to post those ?
Re: New Member: PDM
Post by PDM on Aug 18th, 2003, 7:17pm
yes, i voted against these technic, but now, i think that i was terribly wrong. this technic should be allowed. you cant just ban a technic out of a competition, that is not the way a competition should be. i want to use everything which i can do in the game to make a good time. dakou wont make things easier in a competition, it will just lower everyones times. and lowering our times is what everybody wants. and it is really not easy to dakou on a difficult track, i would really like to see that in the future. it will be by far more interesting watching crazy dakou videos and times on those difficult tracks. and there is also the thing that your speed increases very much in the turns, while drifting with dakou (just hold right/left+R/L in turns) it seems like a side effect or something, but thats also very useful, and it also looks much better. Re: New Member: PDM
Post by David Van Moer on Aug 18th, 2003, 7:36pm
Quote:
you cant just ban a technic out of a competition
More of cheap bug to me than a technique. I could easily post 1'35 times on Sand Ocean and 1'25 times on Outer Space myself but I just can't bring myself to do that.
Re: New Member: PDM
Post by Ryan Jenning on Aug 18th, 2003, 8:28pm
I know that this is supposed to be a times only topic, and that it is none of my bussiness, but don't you think you should lighten up a bit David? I mean, all of the "cheap tricks" such as sliding, the special dives and such were allowed in the FZX competition, so shouldn't GX be the same? If dakou being a bug makes you angry, then think of it as being purposely put in there like Nintendo tried to cover up and say it was. Anyway, I can't really speak on this too good for 9 days, (release in U.S.) so when I see it for myself I will post the same or a different view of it.
Re: New Member: PDM
Post by PDM on Aug 18th, 2003, 8:32pm
@DVM isnt it everytime a bug when you find a technique to drive faster than normal?
when you already drove those times than you should post them.
i would really like to see some other dakou times for some tracks to compare them. i also did not really try some of the tracks (i.e. sandocean), but thats the same on other ones without dakou. most of them are easy to beat i guess.
Re: New Member: PDM
Post by David Van Moer on Aug 18th, 2003, 8:44pm
Sliding wasn't a cheap trick in FZX, it's a legit part of the game even used by the staff ghosts. And you could do those dives with any car with any setting so for me it's was a fixed part of the programming put there as reward for players who were persistent enough to discover and master those hell-hard strats.
But I'll stop complaining about it and just let it be. Perhaps If you have played a previous F-Zero game to death and then played with snaking you might understand my point.
Re: New Member: PDM
Post by Placid on Aug 18th, 2003, 9:48pm
DVM,
You're correct in saying that sliding was not a cheap trick in FZX, but let's face it: FZX isn't the perfect game, and it had exploits (i.e., "cheap bugs") which rewarded you for doing stupid things too.
Take railsliding, for example. In my judgment, railsliding - as hard as it is to master - still negatively affects gameplay (and sure isn't graceful either). And although I don't suppose I've played as much FZX as you have, I'm still saying this as a FZX "vet" who understands something of the depth of FZX strategy. I'd rather concentrate on racing, not on getting some precise angle while grinding my car against a wall (then 'restart' if it wasn't just right...).
Although dakou is the same sort of flaw as railsliding, dakou may be a more serious flaw (affecting the game more). Additionally, flying may take a lot fun out of speed records. Maybe exploits like DTD and TDD (which have more or less turned out to be *fun* exploits) aren't paralled in GX at all. Nevertheless, F-Zero Central hosts competition for the F-Zero games as they are, not as we might wish they could be.
It is mere special pleading to say that some technique ought to be forbidden, or that separate rankings should be set up to split those who do use the technique and those who do not. After all, there are countless ways each F-Zero competition could be divided if we wanted to make technique-specific rankings. The very same principle which could be used to exclude or separate dakou could be used to exclude or separate railsliding, TDDing, floating, or other techniques in FZX (not to mention a host of combinations).
Play without using certain techniques on any F-Zero game if you'd like. Some people like to compare jumper times, Black Bull times, no-DT times, etc. But F-Zero Central has wisely kept its official rankings undivided and unlimited. The fastest route to the finish wins - in short, the games are all played as-is, even though they all could have been better if certain things were changed.
-Jim Mitchell
Re: New Member: PDM
Post by JKTFZEROX on Aug 18th, 2003, 9:57pm
.........
,JKTSPEED
Re: New Member: PDM
Post by David Van Moer on Aug 19th, 2003, 05:51am
Perhaps some stuff on FZX was a little 'buggy' like railsliding but you only have to do that in short controlled burst and it forms part of larger scheme of strats. Also apart from a few tracks like MC1 or Silence it's hardly the deciding factor for a fast time.
Just wait till the US release and then do it all yourselves , experience what it's like and then give your opinion. I just don't feel much for a competition where it's simply the same stick-wrecking strat over and over again.
pretty much all I have to say about that..
Re: New Member: PDM
Post by 74P on Aug 19th, 2003, 06:17am
New member here.
I have to agree with DVM.
It IS a cheap bug. Are we not forgetting that F-Zero GX is a racing game, not some cheap novelty slalom game. Tbh the Dakou bug has spoiled this game for me.
If anyone says, "he is only saying that because he can't do it" then you are wrong my friend. I've recorded a 50 seconds time on Mute City (Twist Road) and i'll tell you this i got absolutely no joy from it.
Re: New Member: PDM
Post by PDM on Aug 19th, 2003, 1:36pm
a bug is always cheap, but it is not easy to dakou on every track. it is not working very well on/in pipes, or even more difficult to execute. and it will be more challenging to get good times on difficult tracks with using dakou than it would be without.
i just got one new PR with dakou today:
Green Plant: Mobius Ring: 3Lap: 1'31"352 1Lap: 28"514 Speed: 2205
and 3 without it:
Port Town: Cylinder Wave: 3Lap: 2'03"711 1Lap: 37"985 Speed: 2053
Green Plant: Spiral: 3Lap: 3'53"491 1Lap: 1'12"670 Speed: 1778
so i beat the staffghosts from lightning and port town without dakou and i dont feel something other about that as if i would have used dakou.
Re: New Member: PDM
Post by RP on Aug 19th, 2003, 5:00pm
I have one thing to say: We should not allow dakou until we know that is in all versions of the game.
Re: New Member: PDM
Post by PDM on Aug 19th, 2003, 5:45pm
i am sure it will be in all of the versions, i cant imagine that they will do something else than translating all the texts in this very short period of time. but that will only make things more difficult, i cant understand why you all are thinking so bad about these technic. its just good for the easier tracks nothing more nothing less. doing that on the difficult ones will need lots of skill. it is just cheap for cheap tracks. and what is if you forbid the technic? there will be angry poeple anywhere, also if you want to make different rankings, do you want to split the competition so badly? you just kept things going on in the past so why are you so upset about this now? perhaps only because the trick was found so early. and that its looking funny is really no argument, sliding along the wall is just looking as badly as dakou. there is no other way than let things go again, if you ban that technic, you destroy a part of the game and also a part of the competition, the technics will be very limited though. imagine what other phenomenons perhaps can be found with using dakou... and if you split it, you split the community, and as mentioned before, it would be a nightmare always to look wether a time was raced with dakou or without.
Re: New Member: PDM
Post by David Van Moer on Aug 19th, 2003, 6:52pm
here we go again..
Quote:
and what is if you forbid the technic? there will be angry poeple anywhere
No it won't. Most people will be relieved that the focus will be on real driving skills instead of slalomming along the track.
Code:
do you want to split the competition so badly
Not a bad idea. I for sure would love to see split rankings for times without snaking or customised vehicles ( like Sugi's site )
Quote:
and that its looking funny is really no argument, sliding along the wall is just looking as badly as dakou.
attacking railsliding again on FZX ? As I said before that's only a small strat amongst many others that can possibly help your time. Whereas dakou is the ONLY thing you do on a track. There is nothing else to do but wiggle around and avoid the rails.
Code:
imagine what other phenomenons perhaps can be found with using dakou
The only thing I can think off is even more cheap stuff like cutting off half the track through the air.
Code:
it would be a nightmare always to look wether a time was raced with dakou or without.
Your record screen shows your car and your setting. A quick screenshot is enough to show you coulnd't have snaked
Re: New Member: PDM
Post by PDM on Aug 19th, 2003, 8:33pm
its not wiggling around the whole time, because i recognized that your speed still increases in corners when you hold to one site much longer than normal. after that i immediately got some new records. it will be hard to decide if how often you sneak and how long you are just holding. on aero dive i was most times just sliding this way, it doesnt look like this very fast sneaking like in mute city twist road anymore. it is damn hard to dakou on tracks which are very tight, or have much and even tight corners. it WILL need much skil to dakou on those tracks. it seems to me that you think that everything is just becoming insanely easy, really it isnt.
but there is a problem coming up if you really want to split the rankings, because most people wont use dakou on every track, because they can drive better without it on some tracks. and how will you include those times into split rankings?
and i think nobody want to look at every picture of every time just to decide if it was dakou or not.
i posted my point of view more than once here and i will just keep racing like before. so i decide for myself if dakou is perhaps better for the track or not.
i hope to be in the rankings at the next update.
Re: New Member: PDM
Post by Placid on Aug 19th, 2003, 9:24pm
DVM,
The point I was trying to make with the FZX railsliding comparison is simply that both dakou and railsliding are the same *kind* of thing. They are both exploits, and I grant that they do not affect the game to the same *degree*. But so what? If the "cheap trick" of railsliding means the difference between WR and non-WR times (which it does on many tracks), shouldn't we exclude it also? And that's not all...what about TDDing? Do you really think flying sideways should be allowed? Those seconds make a crucial difference. What about floating - as if that is racing! So much for those floating-only WRs... Could this slipperly slope even reach DTDs? Yes, it could. I don't care how fun it is, DTDing still hurts my fingers (as I anticipate snaking might do as well). Moves that hurt my fingers at least have some negative gameplay aspect to them.
It's clear that *in principle* dakou, flying, railsliding, TDDing, DTDing, floating, etc. are all in the same category. They are all exploits. That some of these exploits are more stylish, fun, or pervasively useful than others *does* matter a great deal when we are considering how fun a game is to play; however, it is difficult to see how the stylishness and gameplay value of exploits would concern rankings for a game.
F-Zero Central need not cater to the tastes of any person or group regarding what is a bad exploit and what is a good exploit. Perhaps there is a subjective element here. But even if what constitutes a good/bad exploit is an 100% objective matter, the game still stands as it is. Hence, you're not technically competing in F-Zero GX if you're subtracting something from the gameplay that is there (intentional or not, negative or positive, etc.).
Compare technique-limited times seriously or for fun if you like, but also understand that it makes good sense for F-Zero Central to host competitions for the F-Zero games, not somewhat altered versions of these games. It would stand out as an arbitrary decision if some exploit was treated differently in one game.
-Jim Mitchell Re: New Member: PDM
Post by RP on Aug 20th, 2003, 05:47am
I said in another topic: you need to know the basics of F-zero X to get out the max of railsliding, dtd, tdd, floating etc.
What I heared of dakou is: try it once and you beat your times, try it a few times you beat the staffs and thatīs disappointing. Also you donīt need the boost for dakou, so a VERY IMPORTANT STRATEGICAL ELEMENT OF THE GAME HAS GONE.
In summary: dakou bug is too simple to perform and possible on all tracks, fzx bugs are used different on every tracks and need skill (otherwise I would also have a speed total of 60000+ ).
Re: New Member: PDM
Post by Placid on Aug 20th, 2003, 05:51am
RP,
Even if everything is exactly as you say in your post, I don't see how that should affect the rankings system at all. I see how it affects how fun the game is, but that's it. See my arguments above.
-Jim Mitchell
Re: New Member: PDM
Post by PDM on Aug 20th, 2003, 10:51am
you still need the boost! without any corner and without any dash plate your speed will not rise that much than you expect. to get a real fast time you will still have to boost.
Re: New Member: PDM
Post by RP on Aug 20th, 2003, 2:45pm
I apologize. Iīm sorry that I attacked people who like to see dakou times in the rankings.
Itīs everyones own decision to use dakou or not. At the moment I donīt think that I will use it, but if it is necessary I will change my mind.
Until the PAL release of GX i will do what I can on the other F-zero games to keep being an above average F-zero player.
Take a look at the Off-Topic "Metroid 3, 4 and Prime"! Thanks!
Re: New Member: PDM
Post by PDM on Aug 22nd, 2003, 10:34am