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F-Zero GX (Gamecube) >> FZGX General Discussion >> Submitting Dakou times...
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Submitting Dakou times...
Post by Ryan Jenning on Aug 26th, 2003, 8:21pm

Hey, I was just wondering how many people who are in the GX competition are using dakou to get their times. I know that David Van Moer is going to say don't use it, but I was wondering, especially about Dave, I noticed that he submitted some times, and I can't compare times yet because I don't have the game until tomorrow. So Dave, are you using dakou times? I would just like to know because when I get the game, the first thing I am going to do is start a non-dakou game on one of my two memory cards, and I will probably submit those times first until Dave makes his decision for a dakou or non-dakou rankings site. Also I am awaiting the day that Dave announces his decision because I am going to start a rankings page for whichever he does not use. I sent him a message asking about his decision, and he said that he cannot decide until enough people have the game, but he thinks it would be a good idea. He also told me that I will probably have to make a non-dakou page, because so far, he thinks that he will accept dakou times. So whichever he chooses, look for a link to a site either excluding or including dakou.

Would you like fries with that? Okay, have a nice day!

Ryan E. Jenning
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by Webmaster on Aug 27th, 2003, 02:28am

No, I'm not using dakou yet. I have no clue how to use it. I only played for a little while, I still can't even keep from hitting walls on the easy tracks.
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by David Van Moer on Aug 27th, 2003, 06:03am

Well I'm not bothering with snaking , that's for sure.

Perhaps in a few months or so from now when I'm dangling at the bottom of the ranking on some tracks I might be tempted

Also call me uptied but I don't want to use custom vehicles either. Who cares if you beat some track with the " Big Mighty Garnet Awesome Dragon X Y Z" with A - A - A ratings and 3500 kg weight" simply by pressing the boost button ?
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by TelpeFion on Aug 27th, 2003, 06:24am

on Aug 27th, 2003, 06:03am, David Van Moer wrote:
Well I'm not bothering with snaking , that's for sure.

Perhaps in a few months or so from now when I'm dangling at the bottom of the ranking on some tracks I might be tempted

Also call me uptied but I don't want to use custom vehicles either. Who cares if you beat some track with the " Big Mighty Garnet Awesome Dragon X Y Z" with A - A - A ratings and 3500 kg weight" simply by pressing the boost button ?

Hear the words of a true F-Zero purist.

I haven't thought about the custom machines. Can you build some kind of über-car that will trash every record? For instance (lets say dakou will be allowed) you make a car that is heavier than the Black Bull. Wouldn't that car be even better than BB for dakou?
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by Joemst13 on Aug 27th, 2003, 1:14pm

I havent played GX yet, but have been keeping up with the debate over the snaking technique. Without having played it, I can tell you this:

In the SNES, 64, and GBA competitions, you get a console, a game, and a controller. It is up to the player to use these to get whatever time is possible, using any technique the game itself allows, whether intentionally programmed, or otherwise. We are all playing the same game. If this site starts getting into dis-allowing techniques built into the game, it will be chaos. The top times will be shadowed in doubt of whether or not they used "snaking" to achieve a better record. Meanwhile, any novice player who visits the site will probably mock them b/c he or she has broken it by seconds using "snaking", and If I we're the champion, I would feel pretty darn silly explaining how "that technique ruins the playability, or takes the fun out of it, or looks ridiculous" to somebody who has smashed my record. That will get real old, real fast.

No offense DVM, you are the MAN!! times 10!!!!, and I like nothing more than seeing you sitting atop the GX ranking, and I hope you stay there. But the term "champion" will mean less to me if tons of people are posting better times on the message board. Someone out there will be the best "snaker", and will have times on this site that visitors will drool over.

So I say, whatever you can do with a game cube, fzero disc, and a controller, HAS to be allowed. It would be nearly impossble to keep seperate rankings, screenshots wouldn't validate records anymore, and I really wouldn't expect everyone to send in videos of every top time. Again, I havent played this game yet, I have just thought a lot about the issue, and drew these conclusions.

Joe Martin
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by PDM on Aug 27th, 2003, 1:26pm

i cant express it better than you did, i fully agree with you.
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by David Van Moer on Aug 27th, 2003, 5:01pm

Quote:
Can you build some kind of über-car that will trash every record?


You can build a car which can get you 9350 kphs speed on any track where you can fly off the track.

Also the straightish high speed tracks like Split Oval are a piece of cake with an A-boost 3 ton leviathan.

Quote:
It would be nearly impossble to keep seperate rankings, screenshots wouldn't validate records anymore


Yes, screenshots would still work: the record screen shows the car and the balance setting.
If there's any doubt a screenshot will prove if you could have snaked or not.
There's no way you'd get a fast time with the Black Bull on max accel setting without the snaking.
And cars like the Blood Hawk or Night Thunder which can still get fast times with max accel setting can't snake.

BTW, on MK64 they also keep shortcut - non-shortcut rankings and that seems to work nicely as well.


Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by Ryan Jenning on Aug 27th, 2003, 6:38pm

Well, I am using custom cars, but I haven't gotten that far in the game, only have beaten Ruby cup on Expert class, still have the other two left. I have built a car called the Great Unicorn or something like that, but I bought Hyper Speeder (my favorite car on F-Zero X without sliding) almost immeditally. I love the Hyper Speeder!!! It completley trashed my old records that I got within the first hour of playing or two. I think my best record is 2'29"768 on the Aeropolis Multiplex stage. I love that stage too. Graphics are probably best in the Green Plant: Mobius Ring though, but I got to go play F-Zero GX as much as possible before school tomorrow. Also, Dave? Can you move the deadline for GX to friday at noon this week? I think it will give more players who just got the game today some time to play before submitting, I know it will help me a lot!!! Thanks!

Ryan E. Jenning
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by DavePhaneuf on Aug 27th, 2003, 8:12pm

I just rented the game a day ago (And I still have it). ^^

Lot's o fun I must say. Been spending most of my time around the GP section trying to unlock all the cups. I'm getting real close. Just three more cups on master then I got the AX Cup. ^^

For now I'm sticking with Non-Dakou times and speeds.
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by PDM on Aug 27th, 2003, 11:15pm

@DVM
its not that easy on vegas palace split oval ;-) because the weight of a car seems to have influence on its maxspeed, so i biuld a very heavy machine, and why not using the good parts for? it was very complicated though i modified the machine often to be able to fly back on the track on the important part of the track. and thats not possible with a car you cant drive any corners with like your megatons car ;-)

but in one point i must agree with you, it should be forbidden to use flying for maxspeed records! the rankings for this would be completely useless.

how can you call dakou a shortcut you drive the whole track like everytime, you cant compare this with mario kart, where you can cut great parts from the whole track. perhaps you can compare it with flying through the track to get an amazing shortcut time, but dakou is a normal racing technique. and i would also like to fly if somebody invents a good strat for some tracks.
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by ErwanSciaud on Aug 28th, 2003, 03:25am

So let's wait the decision of the webmaster^^
Dakou, flying, custom? Allowed, forbidden?
I m waiting for an answer to start real time attack^^

About maxspeed, i noticed i made a 4500 kmh (around) speed with twin noritta on aeropolis 2 but just before landing i pulled up... Then in the race menu, this speed didn t appear...
So the maxspeed that is recorded is only "floor speed"?
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by PDM on Aug 28th, 2003, 03:30am

its definetely every speed recorded, but you need to finish the 3 laps of course.

everything should be allowed, only the useless 9000kph speed records by flying should be forbidden.
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by Placid on Aug 28th, 2003, 07:50am

The questions raised in this thread vividly illustrate the slipperly slope one finds themselves on once excluding and/or separating a technique is deemed a real possibility. Now we should exclude flying (for maxspeeds or lap and course times also?), custom machines, and perhaps more? Or should we separate these? That would be even more fun...maybe we can have:

(1) dakou + flying + no custom machine rankings
(2) no dakou + no flying + custom machine rankings
(3) dakou + no flying + custom machine rankings
(4) no dakou + flying + custom machine rankings
(5) no dakou + flying + no custom machine rankings
(n) ...and so on and so on and so on. Maybe everyone can be champion of their own private competition.

And after we're done putting F-Zero GX into compartments, then we can go back into F-Zero X and figure out which techniques aren't graceful/the majority dislike there too and split it up likewise? And will the questions even end there?

The point: Competition should be for the game as is, period.

I doubt I'm going to like some aspects of F-Zero GX too (my hands are already a bit tired of snaking today, and I'm not looking forward to maxspeed records if indeed skill isn't the main factor involved), but I'm not going to advise that we tailor the competition according to how I wish the game were made. Will you? ;-)

-Jim Mitchell
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by David Van Moer on Aug 28th, 2003, 08:54am

Quote:
everything should be allowed, only the useless 9000kph speed records by flying should be forbidden


I don't understand. You want to exploit one bug and use it in the rankings saying "hey, it's in the game so it must be a legitimate techniqe ! It must be allowed !! " but then you don't want to allow another one cos you don't like it or you find it uselles ? Can't just randomly exclude stuff because it doesn't fit your idea of how the game should be played now do you ( sounds familiar ? )


BTW Jim, you'd only need 2 rankings. One were anything goes and a second one without dakou/customs ( like Sugi's )

DVM
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by PDM on Aug 28th, 2003, 10:52am

i will explain why this is very different DVM:

with dakou you must be good to get a real good time if you want to compete with other players, using this. but if you want to do a speed record, everybody ranked at 100th can still tie or beat your record without any skill.

and that will make it useless, dakou is just a drving technique. if we want to keep the speedrankings, than we must forbid flying into space. if not, everybody will have nearly the same speed you will just need luck that you get the record, because you get random speeds by this kind of diving. and you can also fly off from all tracks i guess, you just need to do a highspeedcrash into the barrier and there it goes.... if it wont be forbidden we all could start diving like madman to tie or beat a record if we have enough luck.

i already said that the speed rankings could be removed because of this bug, but thats really not the right way, i think.

@placid
your listing is a little bit unclear

we have:
-custom cars (cool addition wich makes it more interesting to build the perfect machine)
-dakou (just a fast driving technique)
-flying (technique for some possible shortcuts)
-flying into space (technique for 9300kph)
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by Placid on Aug 28th, 2003, 11:04am

DVM,

Remember, the way that you've suggested splitting rankings is only one way to divide the pie. The question is, why not some other division? Who decides what techniques/cars to exclude (especially when everyone has a different combination they'd prefer)?

Even a majority vote has problems (e.g., the majority may rule out something that a lot of people find to be fun. Imagine if a majority of FZX newbies ruled out floating or DTDing as horrid glitches! Well, there's no reason in principle why this couldn't happen if we start picking and choosing exploits based on popularity, whether or not the majority of people think certain exploits are fun, stylish, etc.)

If anyone has a right to decide how the rankings are split up, it is Dave. He is the author of this website, and therefore has the final authority. But given that the position he has consistently maintained for all games so far is that of playing the games as they are, I think it unlikely that he should change his paradigm to partial-game competition in this case. Consider the following:

(1) Not a single exploit, even the more annoying/unstylish/pervasive ones (and there have been several), has been nixed or separated to date.

(2) Not a single car or setting has been excluded or ranked separately to date.

Hence, I see no reason to expect a change of ranking philosophy for GX, and in fact I would urge Dave to simply continue on the sensible path he has been following all along.

DVM, you rightly point out the special pleading of PDM above - but what makes your suggestions of what is to be included/excluded/in which ranking set any different? I can't see how exclusion of any techiques/cars/expoits can avoid the charge of special pleading.

-Jim Mitchell
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by JKTFZEROX on Aug 28th, 2003, 12:08pm

Well as far as am concern, i won't really say anything even though i did tried Dakou and regular playing like DVM. At the time being i suck at both, well thats just me though hehe. Dakou kills my palm for some reason also puts lots of strain on my hands after going hours on end.

all new games i suck completely same goes for FZX when i first played can't even get pass 3 laps.

The story mode is killing me for sure especially the very hard ones. I am pretty much stuck on chapter 9 for now until i find some more skill to not fall off the track everytime i tap boost.

non dakou and dakou is probably the best for now
i'd probably have to play on 2 memory cards one for dakou one without bleh.

i'll post my times much later. i can't even control the vehicle i am using so no point hehe. my MCT is 1'02 atm still a bit behind from the staff ghost.

up to you guys if you want to have separate rankings or all combine. Dividing everything into pieces doesn't look so easy to manage


well later

,JKTSPEED
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by PDM on Aug 28th, 2003, 12:23pm

you will get used to dakou, if you play with it long enough your hands wont be aking anymore than. i had the same problems the first days, but now its very easy to perform it over a long time.
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by DavePhaneuf on Aug 28th, 2003, 1:17pm

on Aug 28th, 2003, 10:52am, PDM wrote:
we have:
-custom cars (cool addition wich makes it more interesting to build the perfect machine)
-dakou (just a fast driving technique)
-flying (technique for some possible shortcuts)
-flying into space (technique for 9300kph)


Flying into space for speed is probably the only thing I'd forbid as well. All of them don't require much skill, but this is the most serious one out of the four by far if you ask me.

Maybe a poll should be made about the flying for speed technique, but i think the votes would be pretty much one sided.

EDIT: Oops I forgot. Using custom cars isn't a technique.
EDIT2: Looks like 3 posts were made while I was typing the post. O.o
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by Ryan Jenning on Aug 28th, 2003, 3:18pm

Alright, my view on this is as follows:

How can you even consider not allowing custom machines? I can understand the dakou issue because it is technically a bug, but custom machines were put in there on purpose by Nintendo! Stop complaining and just play the game darn it!

Dakou: Ah, so many issues with this problem. I have offered to make a dakou or non dakou page (whichever Dave decides for me to make) so I think you guys should support me on that because I am trying to help you guys here. I tried to do dakou a little bit ago and have no clue on how to do it. I got Black Bull and put max. accel on and I still can't do it. It's a lot harder than it looks!

Main Points: Support me on the Dakou/Non-Dakou rankings page because Dave already said he isn't gonna make seperate pages, and I'm offering to do this to help you. and...just play how you want. Custom or not. It is an aspect in the game that Nintendo put in on purpose. That's like saying you can't use any vechiles in FZX or FZGX besides the orignal 4 from the F-Zero for SNES because they can be a lot better. Also, flying...alright, it is a little messed up that you can get 9000 on every track, but I know for sure I'm not gonna sit there and do that for 10 min. And if people just start submitting 9000 speeds all over the place, Dave can demand proof, and when they can't give it, he can disqualify them from the F-Zero GX competition.

Sorry if I sound a little aggravated, but these arguments are ridiculous!

Ryan E. Jenning
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by PDM on Aug 28th, 2003, 3:53pm

you need to fly up for about 2mins to get one complete 9300kph dive.

but how can you call proof for every 9000kph speed? that will be tons of proof.
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by Ryan Jenning on Aug 28th, 2003, 4:17pm

Alright, sorry about the wrong time on the flying thing, I haven't been able to do it yet, but still, I don't want to spend 2 min holding down L and R and whatever control stick direction. I hated doing the SSBM thing with Donkey Kong in 15 min melee, it was annoying as heck, and then the computer would get a lot bette and wise up in the last 2 minutes, and you would die then ahh, i hated it. Anyway, I would assume that if someone had shown Dave something like 5 or more 9000 speed records, I would assume that the person would be trustworthy and would accept their times, However, if someone couldn't provide proof, then they would be caught so I think it would work.
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by Supreme on Aug 28th, 2003, 4:21pm

Yes, the 9300kp/h thingy isn't very helpfully for the rankings....it'll only destroy the overall ranking of FZGX.

P.S.: Please don't compare FZGX all the time with FZX or other FZ-games...it's only a new game with his own bugs! Not a sequel ... uhm not really, ya know what I mean .
Re: Submitting Dakou times...
Post by Webmaster on Aug 28th, 2003, 5:09pm

I've always stuck to playing the game "as is" so far, and I haven't heard a strong enough reason to change that yet. As it stands now ... snaking, custom cars, and flying (for 9000+ speed) are allowed.

I don't like the idea of flying any more than anyone else ... but I don't like having a 24-way tie for the speed record at Sector Beta either, and I don't see it as being very different.

Eventually, the best custom car set-up for each track will be determined, and players will commonly use that car for that track (assuming that it's better than any of the regular vehicles).

It's unfortunate that snaking has caused such a debate. But the reality is that this technique is here to stay. I STRONGLY believe that while it may not be a BENEFIT to the competition, it certainly won't RUIN it.

Dave