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Important topic
Post by Leo on Apr 16th, 2003, 1:40pm

Hello there, i've been needing to pull up this subject a while ago, but just didnt need it was necessary back then. I am about to get back into some snes action very soon and atempt some WRs in DW2 and maybe firefield.. my concern is ( rather, my question ) is, can i use any sort of enhancing device with my snes to give me infinite lives?? that would give me more chances to attempt the records, and not have to play all previous tracks again and be wasting time. I really do believe thats how the japanese got all their records.. u cant be a master a firefield for example, just having 4 or 5 tries per game.. then have to play the whole league over again.. u need lots of practice doing it over and over again.. I really dont see a problem with doing this as long as i can prove my strategy ( i sure hope no one ever doubts me ). another concern would be 'imature players ' using the device for other purposes.. well, thats not really my problem. I have never used one of these before..but if its agreed upon, then i will look foward to getting one for myself. let me know what u guys think about.. I know i can get WRs.. i just need infinite lives

later

Leo
Re: Important topic
Post by Webmaster on Apr 16th, 2003, 2:26pm

I will give my opinion in due time, but I want to hear from at least a couple other players before I do that. Come on guys, give us your thoughts. Leo is right, this is an important issue.

Dave
Re: Important topic
Post by djungelurban on Apr 16th, 2003, 2:43pm

yes, there are... look at this page, http://www.world-of-nintendo.com/pro_action_replay/super_nes/f-zero.shtml . but remember that you cant be completely sure that using these codes wont affect the game in more ways then one. you can actually be cheating without even knowing it!!!

my suggestion to you is to download te rom, buy a snes pad replica and use it for training (just for training though).

anyway, regardless of what you decide to do I trust you and I don't think you would anything to improve your times "illegally". if Dave thinks it's OK, then I think it's OK. but I think that it should only be allowed under extreme circumstances, like trying to beat the world record etc.

the only danger with allowing things like Action Replay is that it will lower the "moral standards" (is that a real expresion). I feel that everyone on this site is very honest, but we allow Action Replay people might start using it for other reasons too. If that happens the charm of fzerocentral is lost forever.
Re: Important topic
Post by David Van Moer on Apr 16th, 2003, 6:17pm

That would give you an unfair advantage compared to those without an Action Replay or similar and who have to work their way through the leagues each time to get to the desired course ( like myself )

Of course it would be nice to play tracks like DW2 or FF with infinte lives or even better without that damn trafic but I think that coping with these obstacles is part of the dificulty.

Just my thoughts

DVM
Re: Important topic
Post by JKTFZEROX on Apr 16th, 2003, 8:26pm

Hehe interesting though Leo, but i guess it does seem a bit right since the Snes version isn't like the N64 which allows you to play all the tracks, snes you just gotta go hell with the gp mode to get to the desired track then only have like 5 shots at it.

I know whats its like doing WR times and you need some scary amount of retries just to get it. Its true you can't master tracks like fire field out of the blue when it takes long to get there and when your there you can't really do much with only like 3-5 retries unless they spend 8 years playing then i wouldn't say a word. 8 years is enough to do it the manual way having to earn your way to the track then attempt for an insane run.

anyway i think its okay if Leo uses some cheat just for practicing, though of course it'll be a little unfair for other players but it'll higher the chances to go against a WR. This site works off of trust and cooperation so i guess Leo has some trust already from other people, people who haven't shown some type of proof could be a little different in opinion though everything seems fine

Leo go kick butt or something man hehe

later all

,JKTSPEED
Re: Important topic
Post by Tonio on Apr 16th, 2003, 11:14pm

100% agree with DVM.
Re: Important topic
Post by JKTFZEROX on Apr 17th, 2003, 12:53am

To get WR's with practicing off the enhancer doesn't sound too self-satisfaction, but it might be the only way to even come close to the WR's.

However DVM's method is the most normal and unbiased
that it could get, well you choose Leo .

I still like the thought of you trying out or practicing with the enhancer probably will make it kinda interesting though i am pretty sure not many players will agree to it
hehe.

would be much more proud beating the WR without any help. anyway well goodluck then i guess, later all...

,JKTSPEED [not #1 at snes]
Re: Important topic
Post by ~SPLASH~ on Apr 17th, 2003, 03:04am

If the code only allows you to have infinite lives, I don't see why you should not be allowed to use them. Like you said yourself, it's kinda frustrating when you only get 4 or 5 tries, and then you have to beat all the other tracks again to get to that track.

However, if the code affects the game in any other ways (speed and stuff like that), do not use it.
Re: Important topic
Post by Leo on Apr 17th, 2003, 1:04pm

the only reason i would ever use the enhancer would be for infinite lives ( just more practice ). I guess we will never know how the japanese did it..but i can be all 100% sure they use this tactic.
well since many of you have not agreed with this, i will not buy the enhancer, and just play they game normaly.. i just thought i had a good chance at the firefield WR..but i'm not going to be wasting my time playing kind league over and over again, cause i do actually have a life u know.. DW2 i shouldnt have lots of problems since its the second track on the league... i should be able to get it with lots of practice..

take care

Leandro
Re: Important topic
Post by Webmaster on Apr 17th, 2003, 2:12pm

Thanks Leandro, I agree with your conclusion. I think that DVM's reply stated it very well.

No one should feel the need to purchase a "cheat device" to be able to keep up with the top players, even if it is only to gain infinite lives. Also, the temptation to use cheat codes for greater speed would be greatly magnified. If I ever get proof that the Japanese players used infinite lives on SNES, I'll disallow their WRs (for the purposes of F-Zero Central) for six of the tracks. Only the seven time trial courses plus MC2 and MC3 could be considered "legitimate" in my opinion.

Which brings me to other interesting questions. Should the GBA Player be considered off-limits as well? It could be considered an unfair advantage to play FZMV on the television. Hmm, where do we draw the line? Certainly the 4MB memory upgrade for the N64 can affect play there as well. I'm curious as to who is playing with or without that N64 expansion. I have it (got it with Donkey Kong 64, as I recall).

Perhaps these peripherals should be allowed because they don't have the added temptation of cheating with infinite boost or max speed codes. Your thoughts?

I'm going to move this to Open F-Zero because I have brought other versions into the discussion.

Dave
Re: Important topic
Post by KEJackson on Apr 17th, 2003, 9:38pm

As In my conclusion, I can't lean towards using a cheat code, but if it allows ONLY infinite lives, then it might be borderline OK, but DVM is correct. It WOULD alienate some people. Then again, just about ANYTHING would alienate some people.

Let me sum up what everyone said in a nutshell:
Leo: I want to use a code for infinite lives, but I am not sure it is okay.
Webmaster: It looks to see we have to have other peoples opinions.
Splash: If it is only a code for infinite lives, go for it.
DJjungel: If you use a code, it may "insert" codes you MAY NOT WANT.
DVM: I would not recommend this tatic at all.
Tonio: 100% back up of DVM.
Webmaster: Lets bring this into a general topic discussion, as this may spill into other games. For the time being, lets keep generating some responses.
JKT: In n64, we can go at any track at anytime, but for other games, it might be worth it.
KEJ: I cannot come to a successful conclusion.

Well, some of this doesn't sum it up 100% correct, but it is not cutting stone, either. As for other editions, we should leave the perheprials in. (GBA Player, and whatever the N64 equipment device it is)
As for SNES, I don't think cheating with the infinite lives is correct or incorrect. As for now, I am neutral to the subject.
Kort Everett Jackson

Re: Important topic
Post by Nick on Apr 18th, 2003, 12:11am

Once you alter the program of the game with a code then you are no longer playing the original game and your times should not apply.

Re: Important topic
Post by SimonC on Apr 18th, 2003, 01:25am

My PC crashed before I had the chance to post my reply and now I can't be bothered to write it again, but I'll say this...

All kinds of "enhancing devices" should be banned from time trial competitions.

The add-ons such as the N64 ram pack thingy (which doesn't alter FZX in anyway) and the GB Player should be okay because there official and they don't change anything about the game unlike a Action replay.
Re: Important topic
Post by Tonio on Apr 18th, 2003, 09:48am

yeah, player are ok imo. sp too .
no real difference
(except you can actually see what's happening on the screen, yeah that may help )
Re: Important topic
Post by DavePhaneuf on Apr 22nd, 2003, 1:53pm

Hey there. I haven't played F-Zero much on snes but enough to know that it is a pain to get all the way to Fire Field when you want to try and set a record.
This is what I suggest you do which should be alright.

1.Download a Rom of F-Zero on Snes.
2.Get to Fire Field on the rom and use a savestate right there.
3.Get to Fire Field on the real game and puase your game right there.
4.Use the savestate to allow you to practice Fire Field as much as you want.
5.Then when you feel your ready. Go and try to set a record on the real game.

Of course certain conditions like not having a computer controller or your emulator might effect the way you practice. But I think it should help out. Go ahead and try it if you like.
Re: Important topic
Post by Webmaster on Apr 22nd, 2003, 4:03pm

Dave, that's actually a brilliant suggestion. Wish I had thought of it.

For anyone who might read this thread and be confused, let me state this clearly: YOU CANNOT SUBMIT TIMES RACED ON A ROM TO F-ZERO CENTRAL. That would be considered cheating. But no one ever said you couldn't practice on a ROM.

Dave Crawford
Re: Important topic
Post by KEJackson on Apr 22nd, 2003, 8:28pm

Wow! Dave Phaneuf has the solution to the problem.
Let me alert you of an update. At my school, I have a friend who plays F-Zero MV, but doesn't quite want to join (NOTE: Not Andrew. Another person.)
Kort Everett Jackson
Re: Important topic
Post by DavePhaneuf on Apr 22nd, 2003, 8:48pm

Thanks. I'm glad I could help.

If I owned a copy of F-Zero on Snes I would try to compete. Or course I have a long way to go to get as good as you guys. ^^
Re: Important topic
Post by Tonio on Apr 23rd, 2003, 01:59am

on Apr 22nd, 2003, 8:28pm, Kort Everett Jackson wrote:
At my school, I have a friend who plays F-Zero MV, but doesn't quite want to join

so what ?
Re: Important topic
Post by ~SPLASH~ on Apr 23rd, 2003, 10:27am

True, it has nothing to do with the topic.

Anyway, Dave, that's a very good idea. Worth the try for all of the Snes players, I guess!
Re: Important topic
Post by FluddyFlea on Apr 24th, 2003, 4:59pm

not trying to spoil your fun dave, but this was in my opinion pretty obvious . Not the whole setup snes goto rom goback thingy, but being able to practice any freakin way you want is obvious i think i mean lets say another racing game enhances your fzero skills, but all players dont have access to it, DISALLOW US TO PLAY OTHER RACING GAME? same thing as playing a rom! hehehe im tired and writing awfully bad well hope i get the message across. good work everybody
Re: Important topic
Post by thesorehead on Apr 24th, 2003, 11:10pm

The 4MB memory u/g does absolutely nothing for FZX. You only need to look at Goldeneye to see that games not designed with the mem. u/g in mind won't use it even if it's there.

Playing your GBA on da big screen does offer an advantage: you can throw your GBA 'round like a controller and not take your eyes off the screen. This is more like the TV console method, and definitely offers an advantage - you don't have to keep the unit still to see what you're doing.

Even without this, though, just having the display bigger is an unfair advantage. To say there is no difference is to argue that playing 4-player split-screen FZX carries no significant diadvantage!

Memory address modifying devices (action replay etc.) however, are tricky - although I think it'd be stupid for the memory block assigned to keep track of lives would be used for speed or anything else, we'd need someone who actually coded the game to confirm this.

In the end it has to come down to a case-by case analysis of what advantages/disadvantages - or not - are brought by each particular device. If we jump in on the issue in this way NOW, then we can do it right and avoid confusion later.

that's what I think anyway!
Re: Important topic
Post by JordanS88 on Apr 25th, 2003, 6:13pm

Well, this topic certainly attracted my attention. I'll respond to a few of the comments made.

I'm curious as to who is playing with or without that N64 expansion. I have it (got it with Donkey Kong 64, as I recall).

I do play with the N64 Expansion Pak, but the only two games that I have that really use it are Excitebike 64 (hi-res mode) and Rush 2049. I don't think it has very much of a difference. It might boost the performance of the game in low-framerate sections, but I actually doubt that. Playing EB64 with expansion and hi-res is a pain though...it's actually worse. With a game like F-Zero X, the only "hook" it has is the 64DD and not too many people have that.

That would give you an unfair advantage compared to those without an Action Replay or similar and who have to work their way through the leagues each time to get to the desired course ( like myself )

I think it would be no surprise if people who paid the extra $20 to get an Action Replay would get the highest times. If there was an in-game cheat that allowed infinite lives, I would accept it and suggest that the code even be posted on the site just to make things fair to everyone. But in this case where you're pretty much attempting to buy your way to the top of the leaderboard, there's no way. But I don't think it makes very much of a difference anyway, since once you finish a track in GP you can't go back to race it again (no save states, either), but I'm not too sure about that. I'm not familiar with Action Replay devices but if they do have save states just forget about what I said.

The only way that I think "cheats" should be allowed if they are included with the game's ROM (i.e. you complete a set of races or enter in a button code without any added peripherals, and you get your goodies). And those should be made CLEAR before anybody signs up just so everybody is equal. It's very similar to "super speed" cheats - there's no way to police codes included in the game, so if everyone can use them, you might as well legalize it.
Re: Important topic
Post by FluddyFlea on May 3rd, 2003, 04:14am

on Apr 24th, 2003, 11:10pm, thesorehead wrote:
Even without this, though, just having the display bigger is an unfair advantage. To say there is no difference is to argue that playing 4-player split-screen FZX carries no significant diadvantage!


Its definately not the same thing. FzeroX in for player mode gives you a quarter of the resolution! (160*120 instead of 320*240, not taking away the pixels used by the border lines) and that TRULY makes it more difficult. I think the view is more zoomed too.

You wont, however, get higher resolution with a GBA game on a TV, than you do on the GBA itself. The TV just offers a bigger pic (sure it doesnt move with your hand movements ... hmm ok), and if thats an unfair advantage, so is using a bigger TV than someone else, or using one of those magnifying glasses you can set up on the GBA.

sorry for my bad english but hope you get my points here
Re: Important topic
Post by Webmaster on May 3rd, 2003, 10:58am

on May 3rd, 2003, 04:14am, FluddyFlea wrote:
You wont, however, get higher resolution with a GBA game on a TV, than you do on the GBA itself. The TV just offers a bigger pic (sure it doesnt move with your hand movements ... hmm ok), and if thats an unfair advantage, so is using a bigger TV than someone else, or using one of those magnifying glasses you can set up on the GBA.


That's how I look at the GBA Player issue also. We don't punish someone for using a 60-inch TV to play F-Zero X (while some of us are using MUCH smaller TVs), so it should be OK to use the GBA Player. That seems like a reasonable parallel to me. That's my opinion unless someone convinces me otherwise.
Re: Important topic
Post by on May 30th, 2003, 08:23am

I don't really find that I need *practise* on FF. The reason it would be desirable to have loads of lives would just be to get a run without f'n traffic. Maybe to shave off those hundreths you'd need to practise, but traffic on FF is such a b*tch that I feel I'm about 3 secs slower than my potential, and I just need a lucky run not more practise.

Anyway, I don't want to spend money on a cheat code thingy and so I agree totally with DVM.